Joker (2019)

All non-Nolan related film, tv, and streaming discussions.
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Vader182 wrote:
September 10th, 2019, 10:28 pm
but determining whether the cinematography, editing, story, structure, aesthetic and so on are good or bad are equally as subjective as anything else so..?

where is all this "objectivity"


-Vader
There are definitley rules for stuff like that but I agree, at the end it's a subjective experience. I'm just assuming that's what they mean by objective.

But I guess in this case objective means "please say good things about a movie I've been waiting a long time for."

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Artemis wrote:
September 10th, 2019, 10:31 pm
Vader182 wrote:
September 10th, 2019, 10:28 pm
but determining whether the cinematography, editing, story, structure, aesthetic and so on are good or bad are equally as subjective as anything else so..?

where is all this "objectivity"


-Vader
There are definitley rules for stuff like that but I agree, at the end it's a subjective experience. I'm just assuming that's what they mean by objective.

But I guess in this case objective means "please say good things about a movie I've been waiting a long time for."
Are those rules or are they conventions? And what good are conventions if once they dictated sound or color as mere gimmick? Or digital? How far would we be without the Mavericks who reboot the language of movies? Film is an intangible form of evolving aesthetic principles. Name a convention and I’ll name you ten that break it, and brilliantly.

Judging movies by any concrete metric, any reach for objectivity, is foolhardy.


-Vader

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And I agree with all of that. I was just assuming that's what the "objective" peeps wanna see in the reviews instead of the "personal biases."

I'm on your side here. Apologies if I didn't express myself in a more clear manner.
Last edited by Artemis on September 10th, 2019, 11:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Vader182 wrote:
September 10th, 2019, 10:28 pm
but determining whether the cinematography, editing, story, structure, aesthetic and so on are good or bad are equally as subjective as anything else so..?

where is all this "objectivity"


-Vader
I thought that those would all be objective or "objective" things that are taught in film school.

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taopaipai wrote:
September 10th, 2019, 10:54 pm
Vader182 wrote:
September 10th, 2019, 10:28 pm
but determining whether the cinematography, editing, story, structure, aesthetic and so on are good or bad are equally as subjective as anything else so..?

where is all this "objectivity"


-Vader
I thought that those would all be objective or "objective" things that are taught in film school.
We learned about those things in my films classes, but Vader corrected me and said they are conventions and he's right. We learned about conventional methods in my film classes and we also looked at how those methods were subverted in films too.

Sometimes conventions will work for some people and sometimes it won't. Some people like the subversion more or the "rule breaking" more while some don't.

Tl;Dr most criticism is subjective. Objective criticism would be "the light was too bright" I guess. Or "the score is techno music" idk shit like that and that's probably more stating facts I guess.

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For people who use the word "objective" in regards to film criticism...
Image

As far as politics in art, every piece of art has traces of political/social/religious values that have stemmed from the artists experiences in life. However, it is up to the artist whether they want to show them implicitly or explicitly. As William Bibbiani says, "You’re not nostalgic for the time before art was political. Art has ALWAYS been political. You’re nostalgic for the time before *you* were political".

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Exactly what Blair said. All art tries to say something or get some kind of view across. To be angry about it now is just silly. It's always existed.

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Critics do have biases, tastes, and beliefs that are going to shape how they respond to a film. It is impossible to filter those out. But I do think professional critics should leave their personal politics out of a review as much as possible.

I do think more than ever, for many critics it is just as important how a film properly meets what are the hot button social issues of today beyond just being a quality film. Reading some of those negative reviews about the Joker and it's obvious there is a lot of "like-minded" thought going on between critics, and they are much more interested in the "supposed" effect the film will have on certain people. You don't like it because of plot issues or bad acting, fine. Just review the content of the film, I don't need a critic to be a sociologist.

I am trying not to pay attention to overall scores so much on rotten tomatoes or Metacritic anymore. What I tried to do with critics is try to find a couple that have similar taste and sensibilities as myself and see what they think of a film/show.

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radewart wrote:
September 11th, 2019, 1:16 am
Critics do have biases, tastes, and beliefs that are going to shape how they respond to a film. It is impossible to filter those out. But I do think professional critics should leave their personal politics out of a review as much as possible.

I do think more than ever, for many critics it is just as important how a film properly meets what are the hot button social issues of today beyond just being a quality film. Reading some of those negative reviews about the Joker and it's obvious there is a lot of "like-minded" thought going on between critics, and they are much more interested in the "supposed" effect the film will have on certain people. You don't like it because of plot issues or bad acting, fine. Just review the content of the film, I don't need a critic to be a sociologist.

I am trying not to pay attention to overall scores so much on rotten tomatoes or Metacritic anymore. What I tried to do with critics is try to find a couple that have similar taste and sensibilities as myself and see what they think of a film/show.
Honestly I think this more or less seems to be true. Some critics are looking at this movie through a weird lens and projecting stuff onto the movie. Group think is a real thing. Evidence? Certain critics on twitter literally got mad this movie got acclaim before they even saw the damn thing.

no one has ever reviewed a film, only their relationship to that film

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