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Re: Joker (2019)

Posted: September 8th, 2019, 8:50 am
by Artemis
Ruth wrote:
September 8th, 2019, 8:41 am
Artemis wrote:
September 8th, 2019, 6:08 am
There was a tweet that showed shock at Joker, Roman Polanski, and Nate Parker all winning awards at the festival. The responses were kind of unsettling. One response went along the lines of "why are you putting joker in the same sentence as rapists?" And um sweetie...you might want to rethink that.
Tbh I don’t think it’s productive to put Joker in the same sentence. As horrible of a character he may be, at the end of the day, he’s a fictional character, unlike the other two. Awarding the movie is not celebrating it the same way as is awarding... well the other two.

I think ultimately at least a part of the discussion should be rerouted towards asking how much of responsibility can art bear for possibly inspiring certain people to do certain stuff. Are violent video games responsible for causing violence among youths? Can a song make you kill? Joker hasn’t even “done” that yet, it might never do anything like that. But I think it’s once again a worthy debate to have.
Yeah these are really good points. I think I read the tweet as a "oh wow, this movie I didn't like/people I didn't like won awards" instead of comparing the film to the other two.

At the same time, I don't know if I feel comfortable with people going in too hard with defending the character. Yes he is fictional but at the same time fiction doesn't exist in a vacuum especially when you consider how the Aurora shooter was dressed up like him. But then again this does lead back to the question you posed, can art lead someone to harm someone or even kill?

Re: Joker (2019)

Posted: September 8th, 2019, 10:51 am
by LelekPL
Artemis wrote:
September 8th, 2019, 8:50 am
Ruth wrote:
September 8th, 2019, 8:41 am
Artemis wrote:
September 8th, 2019, 6:08 am
There was a tweet that showed shock at Joker, Roman Polanski, and Nate Parker all winning awards at the festival. The responses were kind of unsettling. One response went along the lines of "why are you putting joker in the same sentence as rapists?" And um sweetie...you might want to rethink that.
Tbh I don’t think it’s productive to put Joker in the same sentence. As horrible of a character he may be, at the end of the day, he’s a fictional character, unlike the other two. Awarding the movie is not celebrating it the same way as is awarding... well the other two.

I think ultimately at least a part of the discussion should be rerouted towards asking how much of responsibility can art bear for possibly inspiring certain people to do certain stuff. Are violent video games responsible for causing violence among youths? Can a song make you kill? Joker hasn’t even “done” that yet, it might never do anything like that. But I think it’s once again a worthy debate to have.
Yeah these are really good points. I think I read the tweet as a "oh wow, this movie I didn't like/people I didn't like won awards" instead of comparing the film to the other two.

At the same time, I don't know if I feel comfortable with people going in too hard with defending the character. Yes he is fictional but at the same time fiction doesn't exist in a vacuum especially when you consider how the Aurora shooter was dressed up like him. But then again this does lead back to the question you posed, can art lead someone to harm someone or even kill?
Defending a despicable character and defending a movie based on that despicable character are two different things. Just because a movie is shown from the perspective of a villain does not mean it glamorizes the character.

As for art influencing someone to kill, how has this become a leftist point of view? It was the rhetoric of the right who wanted to sweep the real issue (gun control) under the rug. No, art does not make people kill. Killers might associate themselves with fictional characters but they would be killers regardless. People in Europe watch the same movies. It's not the issue.

Re: Joker (2019)

Posted: September 8th, 2019, 10:55 am
by Artemis
Just based on the trailers alone the movie does seem to make Joker out to be a hero but I hope I'm proven wrong when I see it.

I don't know if it's a strictly leftist point of view. But there definitley are people on the left who do want to censor artists and that's not a good thing either.

But I do agree with your post overall and you're right on the money with all of it.

Re: Joker (2019)

Posted: September 8th, 2019, 11:14 am
by Allstar
MyCocaine wrote:
September 8th, 2019, 7:01 am
Surely, you must have better things to do than to hijack this thread once again.

Re: Joker (2019)

Posted: September 8th, 2019, 11:18 am
by Ruth
Like, I was going to say I hope this movie pulls a wolf of wall street, but then I realized. Just look at Scarface, for example. De Palma doesn’t hesitate to show that beneath all of that unearned glitz and glamor hides a very miserable and despicable person, an abusive violent misogynistic piece of shit. Yet look at how many people relate or even idolize Tony Montana just because of the rags to riches theme or the cool exterior. Wolf of Wall Street is exactly the same. By the end of the film both Belfort and that excessive lifestyle are rendered pathetic, yet how many (white) dudes look at him like he was some prime example of how to both get and be rich.

So what I’m saying is that I have no idea if this film will even try to actively push against the incel ideas. I’m not sure if it would achieve anything even if it tried to do it. Taxi Driver wouldn’t have fared very well in 2019 either, me thinks.

P.S. Allstar, I can see you’re slowly going back to your old ways - I definitely suggest you stop this shit.

Re: Joker (2019)

Posted: September 8th, 2019, 11:27 am
by Vader182
i am completely mystified people are acting like Joker is the first movie to follow a villainous character


-Vader

Re: Joker (2019)

Posted: September 8th, 2019, 11:41 am
by nolannolanchrischris
Artemis wrote:
September 8th, 2019, 8:50 am
At the same time, I don't know if I feel comfortable with people going in too hard with defending the character. Yes he is fictional but at the same time fiction doesn't exist in a vacuum especially when you consider how the Aurora shooter was dressed up like him. But then again this does lead back to the question you posed, can art lead someone to harm someone or even kill?
Not the case.
https://mobile.twitter.com/SiddhantAdla ... 3130128384

I think it's a fairly dangerous idea to perpetuate.

Re: Joker (2019)

Posted: September 8th, 2019, 11:42 am
by Artemis
nolannolanchrischris wrote:
September 8th, 2019, 11:41 am
Artemis wrote:
September 8th, 2019, 8:50 am
At the same time, I don't know if I feel comfortable with people going in too hard with defending the character. Yes he is fictional but at the same time fiction doesn't exist in a vacuum especially when you consider how the Aurora shooter was dressed up like him. But then again this does lead back to the question you posed, can art lead someone to harm someone or even kill?
Not the case.
https://mobile.twitter.com/SiddhantAdla ... 3130128384

I think it's a fairly dangerous idea to perpetuate.
Thank you for the fact check! Appreciate it!

Re: Joker (2019)

Posted: September 8th, 2019, 11:43 am
by Michaelf2225
Vader182 wrote:
September 8th, 2019, 11:27 am
i am completely mystified people are acting like Joker is the first movie to follow a villainous character


-Vader
most of the people on film twitter don’t actually watch many movies. or, at the very least, they don’t comprehend what they’re watching

i’m not even really interested in this, but all this dumb rhetoric got me out here defending a movie i might not even see in theaters

Re: Joker (2019)

Posted: September 8th, 2019, 11:47 am
by Vader182
Michaelf2225 wrote:
September 8th, 2019, 11:43 am
most of the people on film twitter don’t actually watch many movies. or, at the very least, they don’t comprehend what they’re watching

i’m not even really interested in this, but all this dumb rhetoric got me out here defending a movie i might not even see in theaters
back in Elizabethan London were people decrying richard III and macbeth as promoting incel behavior


-Vader